Origin (Zelda Classic)

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Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Alice » August 23rd, 2016, 3:18 am

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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Leet » August 23rd, 2016, 9:51 pm

So... this game seems to suffer from the thing that I think a lot of Zelda Classic devs do, is that they try and present a "modern" appearance with a LTTP/GBC-type Zelda world, but can't actually get the engine to function like one.

So you get all these NPCs who can't be interacted with, and signs that have to teleport you away to be read, and a game that looks great in screenshots but doesn't play like it looks. The game ends up feeling like a facade.

I believe you can code in ZC, so I think it is possible to get around these limitations better than Origin has. I also think the game would do a lot better to have more rooms in dungeons without enemies. I know that it's a Zelda 1 reimagining, but it keeps using modern Zelda tracks which are clearly made for a more atmospheric/exploratory experience.

I really liked "I Am Bored" because it understood what it was capable of doing and did it instead of pretending to be something more than it could.
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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Ozzy Ment » August 23rd, 2016, 11:00 pm

Can you seriously not get magic except by buying it? If so, that sounds like a very poor design choice.

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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Speedless » August 24th, 2016, 2:14 am

Ozzy Ment wrote:Can you seriously not get magic except by buying it? If so, that sounds like a very poor design choice.

The candle's magic cost definitely does make checking for secrets a bit more of a pain than it should be. Then again, if all potentially burnable things are just like the one Iso's burned already, maybe you won't need to use the candle too much to find secrets, since they have a unique appearance, and there usually aren't too many on each screen (unlike trees in the original Zelda, which are all over the place, sometimes requiring 10+ candle recharges to check them all on just one screen).

Also, I think it might be possible to get magic out in the world. In the first episode, a magic jar appeared around 7:25, on the spot where a green Tektite was standing. He cut the grass there at the same time, though, and the jar seemed to show up sooner than I thought enemy drops normally did, so I'm not sure whether it was actually dropped by the Tektite. If all else fails, the magic jar is only 10 rupees in the village, at least.

... And while I'm double-checking my enemy names, I'd just like to mention the Zelda II Tektite's nonsense legs!! (They look pretty weird in motion, too, but not quite this weird.)

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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Alice » August 24th, 2016, 4:16 am

Leet wrote:I believe you can code in ZC, so I think it is possible to get around these limitations better than Origin has.

If I recall correctly, Zelda Classic has Lua support or something along those lines so it should be totally possible. The issue is that a lot of these quest makers probably know nothing about programming.
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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Leet » August 24th, 2016, 5:50 pm

I think the miniboss warp thing was in Spirit Tracks too.
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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby chridd » August 24th, 2016, 9:17 pm

and it was also in Link Between Worlds.

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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby EarthPhantomTS » August 25th, 2016, 4:50 pm

I don't know why so many people like to have the candle use magic. The Blue one ALREADY HAS a limit on how it can be used! Either just give the player the Red one straight off the bat, or don't have it use magic! Urgh! I realize this is a common thing, but I still don't like it! And every quest that does this just has to use the Blue Candle too, absolutely!

Honestly, this quest looked interesting, at first, but there's a lot of design decisions that really make me question her sanity (the quest author, I mean).
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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Speedless » August 25th, 2016, 5:25 pm

EarthPhantomTS wrote:I don't know why so many people like to have the candle use magic. The Blue one ALREADY HAS a limit on how it can be used!

Good point. The Blue Candle's limit is quite limiting already! And despite that, I really like using even the Blue Candle as a defensive weapon of sorts, but not when you can only use it maybe 20 times before having to go fight a bunch of Tektites or spend money to get more magic. At least the game seemingly doesn't make you use the Candle repeatedly to find the burnable thing in a field full of possibly burnable things...

Either just give the player the Red one straight off the bat, or don't have it use magic!

Or both! Well, both would probably only be best if you built your quest around candles. I don't think making Zelda Classic quests is where I am right now, but I do sort of want to make one where candles are your main weapon (and the fire can't hurt you). I guess I'd have to make it so that candles damage the same things swords do if I wanted it not to be a crazy consumable item management challenge... also, Blue Darknuts don't need to be any harder than they already are!

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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Speedless » September 3rd, 2016, 3:52 am

About those minigames... For some reason, when you hit one of the targets, the next target only appears after you move--but even if you stand still, the timer is still running! So what happened was, the timer ran out without the next target appearing... because the room didn't update... because Iso was standing still. (This happened to me many times in my quest to get the minigame Heart Pieces... It's a little weird, but once you get used to it, it's mostly just annoying.)

Also, for the Bomb minigame, I highly recommend (at least in the first quest, where the minigame is right in the village) the cheatso tactics trick I used, which is saving with full Bombs before playing the game and then Retrying every time you fail--so when you reload, you'll still have all your Bombs. That doesn't add much to the iteration time (unless your last visit to the village was that Heart Piece ledge above the Candle shop), and it saves Bomb farming, too!

Regarding the Whistle: It's seemingly a little finicky. Details in this box, since it's a confirmation of something Iso touched on today:
I wasn't able to open Level 7 without killing the Moblin on the screen first, whether I stood on the lake or elsewhere. (Maybe standing on the edge of the lake like Iso did is a special case?) Also, I was able to whistle away that tree in the desert after killing everything...

By the way, Iso, thanks for showing me where the Magical Sword was! That was the one thing I couldn't figure out how to get on the overworld... well, except that one Heart Piece up in Death Mountain, which I'm still not sure about... maybe you can do something with the flower there?

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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Isocitration » September 4th, 2016, 3:34 am

I looked into that framerate issue a bit, and it seems that it's only a problem while recording. Zelda Classic has an option to display the framerate in game and despite being clearly less than 60, it displays the normal 60/60 while recording. And it's not like the game or recording is taking up an abnormally large amount of system resources, so I'm not sure what's up.
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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Alice » September 4th, 2016, 3:54 am

Isocitration wrote:I looked into that framerate issue a bit, and it seems that it's only a problem while recording. Zelda Classic has an option to display the framerate in game and despite being clearly less than 60, it displays the normal 60/60 while recording. And it's not like the game or recording is taking up an abnormally large amount of system resources, so I'm not sure what's up.

May just be a quirk of Zelda Classic itself having issues with being recorded. If possible, you may try out a different recording software and see if that changes things at all. Specifically if you're using a recording software that records a specific window then you may try one that records an area instead. I recall awhile back reading about a game having an issue where the recording software would hook into the game's framebuffer and it caused issues with the game since the game was coded a bit weirdly.
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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Leet » September 4th, 2016, 10:07 am

oh man, it's time for some grand Zelda Classic gameplay featuring: just put a bunch of tough enemies in a room. It's Gameplay

there's a reason that zelda became less combat-focused over time... this dungeon could have been so much better if not every room was a panic factory :/
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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Speedless » September 4th, 2016, 7:11 pm

Leet wrote:oh man, it's time for some grand Zelda Classic gameplay featuring: just put a bunch of tough enemies in a room. It's Gameplay

there's a reason that zelda became less combat-focused over time... this dungeon could have been so much better if not every room was a panic factory :/

If there's one thing I'll give Origin credit for, it's that the enemy placement in Level 6 might actually be less spammy than the original Zelda first quest's Level 6. Origin's oddly hard-to-avoid traps (I agree with Iso, I can't see how to dodge some of them at all) and the spirit world's invincible Ghinis are not what I'd call pleasant... And one thing Origin does like spamming is Bubbles, which for some reason I have absurd amounts of trouble recognizing and dealing with in this game (especially annoying since they're usually paired with Like-Likes, Wizzrobes, or... *shudders at Bubble-enemy combo I don't think Iso's seen yet*). But in terms of shredding your health, there's not much that can beat those Blue Wizzrobes, and Origin kindly restricted those to just two or three rooms (and in the room before the boss, you're not required to fight them).

Like-Likes + Wizzrobes has never been a combination that I liked, though, and Level 6 does spam dark rooms more than I'd like (especially with all the spikes around). In fact, I'd say that in general this game feels hard in ways that I don't necessarily agree with. And on that note, I think maybe the real culprit in the magic shortage problem (aside from low magic drop rates) is the Boots. Sure, it's silly that the Blue Candle uses magic, but a single small magic drop will last you maybe four or five Candle uses. The Lens of Truth and the Magic Wand are a little more costly, but if you save them for puzzle-solving, they won't eat through your magic meter like getting pushed onto spikes during the item fanfare will (yeah, that happened to me with that key too). And the Boots don't have to use magic! You have to enable a specific quest rule to make them do that, so unless there's some preset quest configuration that has it enabled, the decision was deliberate.

Oh, and there's one more thing Iso was wondering about: If you kill all of the enemies in a room, they'll all respawn after you've gone in a certain number of other rooms or left the dungeon completely. But if you make a Zol or Vire split by hitting them with a weak attack, even if you kill the Gels or Keese that they split into, the Zol/Vire doesn't count as "killed." So if you split one Vire, then kill everything in the room, only one enemy will spawn when you return.

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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Speedless » September 6th, 2016, 2:47 am

Man, Iso, you figured out what was going on in Level 8 really quickly! I, uh, forgot that the Dome of Trials was even a thing, and so I spent a highly unpleasant amount of time searching fruitlessly for delicious, delicious Progresso there. Nice quick-kill on the Patra, too--and I hadn't considered the possibility of shooting that villainous Gohma through the Beamos, so maybe that one isn't quite as much RNG: The Boss as I thought it was.

So for anyone who might be wondering, there's a PDF that comes with the game. Inside, among other things, there's a list of the items you need for each dungeon. This dungeon requirement list did not include any reference to the Dome of Trials, and in fact I didn't notice any hints anywhere that the Dome was anything but super-secret postgame content. At least now I know that there's no real cost to trying it (except replacement costs)--and that you're probably expected to do it the second you have every item you need to kill any kind of enemy. (It's probably required to do Level 1 in the third quest... :tundecided:)

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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby EarthPhantomTS » December 16th, 2016, 11:40 pm

Hey guys? The page the quest is downloadable from was moved:http://www.zeldaclassic.com/resource-listing/entry/197/.

Just saying.
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Re: Origin (Zelda Classic)

Postby Alice » December 17th, 2016, 7:12 am

EarthPhantomTS wrote:Hey guys? The page the quest is downloadable from was moved:http://www.zeldaclassic.com/resource-listing/entry/197/.

Just saying.

Fixed the download link.
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